Comments on: The Role of Anecdote vs. Scientific Evidence the Running Form and Footwear Debate https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html Running Shoes, Gear Reviews, and Posts on the Science of the Sport Mon, 07 Nov 2011 19:46:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.11 By: scwilbanks https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-357746223 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-357746223 Great article.  In the end only one anecdote matters: YOUR OWN.  If barefoot running works for you, go for it! But if not, thats fine too, don’t worry about it.

Smith

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By: Anonymous https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-363279946 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-363279946 Im confused. First you,along with many other barefoot/minimalist proponents, blast mainstream shoe companies for not using scientific data to back up their claims that their shoes reduce running injuries.
Now, after McDougall’s article gets criticized for an over emphasis on anecdotal evidence, you say that It’s ok to select footwear based not on science, but on feel? Btw I bet the shoe designers at Brooks can cite a ton of anecdotal evidence that shoes like the Beast do reduce injuries.

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By: Dave https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-358894675 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-358894675 In reply to Pete Larson.

Well shoot, nothing like having the wind taken out of your sails. Keep up the awesome work and thanks for your dedication. Also, congrats on the Runner’s World article a while back!

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By: RunTraveler https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-358937444 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-358937444 I truly appreciate this balanced approach to viewing research.

I try to remind my students regularly that correlation does not always equal causality, and that while we spend quite a bit of time discussing the characteristics of a population “on average” there are always outliers. (I’m a demographer by day and teach Intro to Sociology by night…) You can wind up in quite a bit of trouble if you presume, for example, that all people from France have exactly the same values, motivations, and lifestyles. It may be true that many French residents enjoy good wine and cheese, but it is just as true that there are lactose-intolerant non-drinkers in France.

In the same vein, there is a wide spectrum of running styles and body types. Just because a technique works for “most people” does not mean it works for all. I particularly liked the quote “If you are advising or treating individuals according to the average effects, you may be doing the wrong thing.”

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By: Pete Larson https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-363296357 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-363296357 In reply to Anonymous.

By the way, McDougall quoted Benno Nigg in his article – he’s one of the leading biomechanists in the world and was heavily involved in the development of the pronation control model. He now apologizes for this and says pronation should not be much of a concern. There was more than just anecdote in Chris’ article.

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By: Adam L. https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-357883496 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-357883496 Good points on the value of anecdotal and scientific evidence – not every scientific article is correct (and, in fact, many are retracted for various reasons), and anecdotes can form the basis for a lot of different practices, even in science (see anyone teaching you a short-cut in setting up, running, or working-up a chemistry experiment, for example). 

I also find it interesting how many of the naysayers who say they tried barefoot running and had many injuries ignore the fact that our running in shoes is a learned behavior (conscious or not), one that needs to be “unlearned” before running properly.

It will be interesting to see what happens with kids like yours who are given more “minimal” type shoes as they grow up, and if their running form changes over time.  A long-term, prospective study like that (which I’m sure parents would be happy to participate in if the shoes were provided…) may provide the best evidence regarding how more built-up shoes change our running form.

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By: Greg Strosaker https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-358462075 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-358462075 Great thoughts Pete and this is a terrific summary of the pros and cons of various approaches to developing evidence in support of a theory.  The third paragraph discussing anecdotes is key – it is important to not apply the results too broadly, and the same can be said of scientific research as well.  All studies have limitations, and often in the summary of such studies by the media, these limitations are omitted.  Yet there often lies the key in understanding how broadly applicable the findings are.  If the study, for example, focuses on elite athletes, are the findings really relevant for the everyday Joe?

I’d have less problem with McDougall’s approach if he were a bit more nuanced and open in his statements.  Granted, this may make him a less entertaining writer, but at the end he needs to decide what he wants to be – a storyteller, or a researcher.  He walks the line between both and it hurts his credibility, especially as the latter.  As I wrote in my own review, maybe he is the Steve Jobs of the footwear industry, and maybe he’s just ahead of his time.  But Jobs was wise enough to step away for a bit when he realized the world wasn’t ready for what he was preaching.  It’s not clear McDougall would do the same.

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By: Dave https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-358850197 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-358850197 Fantastic read! One thing though is that, as we throw in the “results may vary” type statement, we run the risk of the perception that the thing being discussed will likely work for the vast majority. And, in this case at least, I’m skeptical that it will. As a disclaimer, I’m a severe over-pronator who didn’t get relief from shin splints until I started using orthotics. And, since then, my trusty Brooks Adrenalines, sans orthotics, have played a huge role in keeping me on the roads. I’m just one guy though and that’s my personal experience, making me one case where the results have definitely varied, which leads me to my next point.

It’s been my experience that most people who get into running later than, say, 30 or so, do so because they want to lose weight. And, if that’s true, then it follows that a fairly high percentage of beginners will be moderately to severely overweight. Imagine the impact that will have to be absorbed by the legs, hips, connective tissues, etc… when a 240lb+ person, who possibly hasn’t seen anything faster than a walk in a good long time, goes out to hit the roads for the first time. Perhaps I’m shortsighted or simply unreasonable here but I can’t imagine that a minimalist shoe would be the way to go in a situation such as this. I’ve spoken with my shoe guy, who sells just about everything, about this a few times and he’ll tell me story after story of overweight people who wanted the latest cool stuff on their feet, only to abandon running within a few weeks due to injury. 

Again, this is merely “it seems to me” type logic with a little bit of “some guy said” thrown in, and I’m totally open to being wrong, but I’d be surprised if a minimalist approach would benefit 50% or more of those who purchase running shoes. I don’t fault the science or theories, just our own capacity to stay away from couches, cheeseburgers and supersized portions of pasta. I’d like to say that, in a perfect world, we’d have an undisputed one size fits all solution but that would make blogs on running pretty boring.

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By: Pete Larson https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-358877085 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-358877085 In reply to Dave.

Thanks for the comment. I will throw one thing out there though – there have been studies that have found no link between BMI and injury risk in runners, and the speculation was that it’s because they runner more slowly and probably lower mileage than more fit runners. What’s more, impact is increased with a heel strike in a cushioned shoe over a forefoot strike in a minimalist shoe, so the idea the big runners need big shoes may not hold water. I know big guys who run barefoot without a problem, so this may be just another example where what seems like common sense may not be entirely accurate, and there are anecdotes pointing both directions. McDougall himself is a pretty big guy, and was even larger when he wrote Born to Run than he is now – he’s lost a lot of weight over the past few years.
I will also say that a lot of the speculation that suggests that injury rates remain high because modern runners are out of shape may be off a bit as well. Many of the injury studies that are out there are looking at experienced runners and not beginners. Seems to me that a fit runners are not escaping the injury bug.
Sent from my iPad

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By: Marnie M https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-361463456 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-361463456 Interesting post! I am just starting to try out barefoot running and as a blogger, I’m trying to be careful because I know what works for me won’t work for everyone. But at the same time, it is good to hear people’s experiences and then ultimately each person can try for herself/

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By: Phil S https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-358162350 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-358162350 Anecdotes are powerfully influential, especially when they come from people we trust, most notably ourselves.  We tell stories to ourselves to validate our decisions. We narrate our lives according to how we want the story told, not how it actually happened.  Alex Hutchinson’s post reminds us of that, noting how McDougall did not in fact run injury-free after adopting a new form, but in retrospect may have conveniently forgotten his 2 year bout of plantar fasciitis. I’m as a guilty of that as anyone. I think back on a great year of running, easily forgetting the 7 weeks off with a fibular stress fracture, or the chronic Achilles tendonitis. Minimalism gave me new speed and overcame a running plateau, but also created new weaknesses and injuries. The joy of running so easily overwhelms the pain.  Why else would we sign up for a new race just a few days after painfully finishing another marathon or ultra?  

I’ve been thinking about placebo lately, and it’s effects on running form. I think it’s particularly pronounced in anecdotal evidence.  For example: heel-toe drop.  So many shoe reviews note heel-toe drop, but then state that the shoe “feels flat” or the heel “feels high.” Is anybody studying whether actual vs. stated heel drop causes runners to change form. Could we tell Group A that their shoes have 10 mm of drop and document heel stiking, but we tell Group B (wearing the same shoes) that their footwear has only 4 mm and we see more forefoot striking? I think we might, especially if the study subjects were informed about minimalist running and were expecting a certain result. The human body has an amazing ability to sense subtle differences and adapt.  Barefoot running teaches us that.  But the human brain also has an amazing ability to fool itself and the body. We can see this in the runners in FiveFingers who continue to heel strike, but are convinced that minimalism alters their form.

My biggest worry about anecdotes, though it applies to controlled studies a well, is the conflation of cause and effect.  Correlation does not equal causation.  Inevitably, we forget that.  We think that the only part of our training that we alter is our footwear, and we attribute to that change a decrease in injury.  Outside of a laboratory (and even inside a lab, for that matter), it is difficult to truly isolate a variable.  With a change in shoe, such as from stability trainer to minimal flat, likely comes a change in training intensity, mileage, periodization of mileage, socks.  Therefore I will always give greater credence to anecdote, if adequately documented.  An experiment of 1 still needs good experimental design, or the results lose value.

As always, Pete, another excellent, thought-provoking post.

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By: Pete Larson https://runblogger.com/2011/11/role-of-anecdote-vs-scientific-evidence.html#comment-363295458 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=388#comment-363295458 In reply to Anonymous.

And if a runner is wearing the Beast and is not injured, by all means keep doing it. I just don’t buy that there is any good evidence that every person with a flat foot should wear the Beast, and in fact there is published evidence that people who should be wearing the Beast according to prevailing wisdom get hurt in them. I’m a proponent of variety, and for too long we,ve been told that we need shoes of a certain type, and there is no good data to support that model. In the absence of such data, anecdote has a role, as does personal experimentation. I absolutely believe that science is important, and there is a lot of good science supporting the fact that a more barefoot-style stride can have positive benefits on the loading of our joints when we run. At the end of the day, doing what works for you is all that really matters.

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