Comments on: On the Limitations of Science in the Study of Running https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html Running Shoes, Gear Reviews, and Posts on the Science of the Sport Fri, 21 Jan 2011 03:52:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.7.12 By: KP https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-132503552 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-132503552 In reply to Pete Larson.

I agree. So have an individual experiment with different running forms (scientifically, carefully, & open-minded) and see which form is most efficient and injury free. Apply this to many individuals and compare. That is when the basic principles emerge and that is something we can learn from.

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By: FoCoRunner https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-132469259 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-132469259 Nicely explained, Peter. When I taught a course or two awhile back, I used to tell the students that biological data are messy. The general trend in the data can be informative for sure, but often we learn a lot more about a phenomenon that is important in individual cases when we ask what is causing the messiness (variation).

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By: Greg Strosaker https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-134366733 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-134366733 There is no such thing as a truly “controlled experiment” for such an activity as running (despite what some studies will claim), as there are far too many variables to possibly address and control. Even if you were to track one runner over time, the variability in their own mood, energy, nutrition, hydration, physical condition (wear and tear, illness, etc.) would make it impossible to draw clean and neat conclusions. As data-driven as I am, even I recognize that common sense, trend evaluation, and just plain gut instinct play a big role in reaching conclusions about what works for an individual runner or the running community collectively. Thanks for the “authoritative” reminder of such truths, Pete.

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By: Pete Larson https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-132430350 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-132430350 In reply to KP.

Absolutely – I do believe there are general principles that apply. What
those are is the big question. For example, running science has focused in
large part on heel-toe running for the past 30 years because that is what
most people do, but now with the minimalist movement and recognition that
form may have been overly tied to our shoes during that time period, a lot
of the general principles we have developed are being called into question
and there is a lot of uncertainty right now. Does what we have learned
about pronation in heel strikers apply to mid or forefoot strikers for
example – probably not entirely, so you need to be careful when you apply
principles generated by a lot of the past studies. I can virtually guarantee
that the population in most of the injury studies we have consisted mostly
of heel strikers wearing typical running shoes. Do a similar study on
minimalists in flat shoes and predominant injury types are likely to change
(things like met stress fractures, calf/Achilles injuries probably become
more common).

It’s a complex, yet exciting time to be trying to figure this all out, and
each runner is part of the learning process.

Pete

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By: Denny https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-132288017 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-132288017 I think there’s a significant issue with respect to trying to run any sort of analysis on running data: margin of error.

Sure, a race chip time is accurate – but how reproducable are the results? How deep a data set is needed from a runner to establish reliable, reproducable data?

And that’s just one issue w/r/t timing. What about other, difficult-to-quantify data, like pain?

The difficulty in having rigorous data is a big hurdle to a lot of research – at least when trying to state a reproduceable thesis.

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By: Pete Larson https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-132434726 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-132434726 In reply to Fitz.

Fitz,

Yes, I agree totally. Repetitive, unvarying stress is a killer. Add in a
biomechanical flaw, a bad shoe, or excessive fatigue and something is bound
to break. I’m a big believer in variation – I do it with footwear and
elevation, but mixing in trails, cross training, strengthening are probably
also good approaches.

Pete

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By: Pete Larson https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-132769849 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-132769849 In reply to Matt.

I didn’t take it as a dig, no worries. There are a lot of people on
both sides who are dogmatic that minimalism is either the only way or
that it is crazy. I prefer a middle ground, though my personal tastes
are more toward the minimal end of things. It’s true the flats have
always been there, but even today, if you go to a mall or big box
sporting goods store you rarely see them on the wall. Went to my local
Dick’s a few weeks ago and of 92 men’s running shoes on the wall, not
one was a flat or a minimalist style shoe. Lots of people still have
no idea that other options are out there.

Pete

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By: Matt https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-132763195 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-132763195 In reply to Mark U..

My lengthly running “career” has allowed me the opportunity to modify one variable at times. One thing that has absolutely helped in this is having a benchmark race. I do the same 5 miler here every year for the last 12 years and a few years before that. This, coupled with some comprehensive logging, helps. As does educating myself about as many running studies as I can find ( and not just ones I want to agree with)

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By: Runnermatt https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-132570443 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-132570443 I was thinking along similar lines this morning. I think the response to this is runners seeking a “magic bullet” for their own problems. (to be fair, there are times when I’m as guilty as anyone) I saw where the Newton guys stated the he could improved one’s marathon time by 30 minutes just by switching shoes. To be honest, that is why I bristle at the whole barefoot/minimalist running movement- too much focus on one aspect.

My general approach is an experiment of one. I am not afraid to try varied approaches and analyzing if they are working. While results are nice, I simply enjoy the process of becoming a better runner. Even if I make a few mistakes along the way.

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By: San https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-133336463 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-133336463 This actually makes for a very interesting study. I agree with you that everyone is different, and science does have its limitations. However, it would be nice to know whether my choices for shoes are all based on facetious believes in my head, or that I am actually making the best choice based on the best knowledge out there. And honestly, from an economist point of view, this is a totally do-able study. The setup would require a group of ppl that we can track for a year (ideally 1000+), we need to collect information on what shoes they have worn, how many miles they have run on each shoe, what kind of injuries have they had in the past and what kind of injuries they have now, and maybe other things that they do that are running related – i.e. stretching, taping, icing, etc. Hmm too bad I’m not in academia anymore, but this could be very very interesting.

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By: Laminator https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-133288088 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-133288088 Excellent post Pete. I like how you are convincing people that scientific experimentation is never “clean” and that despite what we would like to believe, there’s hardly ever going to be one shoe or one method of running that’s going to work for everyone. Even for one single individual, the body changes over time so what works at one time might not be so good a year or two years or five years down the line. In scientific studies, we are always just looking at averages and percentiles and nothing is ever 100%, so how can we know we have the “truth” about anything…much less advocate it for others. We can only dispense advice that will “more likely work”. That is often the best we can do.

That’s why for shoes, i advocate for shoe rotation. As for your specific examples of Kinvaras, Fasttwitch and Grid A4 Racers, I am and have been running in all three and have personally found that only the Kinvaras hold up in the longer distance races. I use the last two only for 5K-10K distance races.

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By: Brian https://runblogger.com/2011/01/on-limitations-of-science-in-study-of.html#comment-132342174 Tue, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://localhost/runblogger/wordpress/?p=511#comment-132342174 Sports injuries is related to the field of excercise immunology; I think the reason for getting injuried can also related to one’s health and immune system and not only biomechnics, making the subject even harder. One question may be how for instance stress fractures are related to Vitamin D staus and bone health.

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